Let's Try This Again

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Let's Try This Again

Post by CHAOS_FANTAZY on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:00 pm

It would appear that the old debate topic got wiped off the face of the earth. Seriously, it's not even archived in the trash can. Oh, well.

So now that we've all had a good while to cool our turbines, and with Christmas hopefully putting us in a much better mood, I hope we can all come together and amicably form some sort of a compromise.

So we don't wind up repeating information, here's what we've already gathered.
Facts Relating to Against
> All forum members have expressed a dislike for the No Magic Rule at some point in time
> Most share the opinion that it is bad because it takes away from the characters that can be present in HeroQuest
> A specific compromise has been proposed--which is to explicitly state that Lucas does not condone the actions in his game, which is similar to what Michael Jackson used to do
> The instigator of the debate (me) is a Catholic Christian

Facts Relating to For
> Trainer Lucas, the leader of this project, appears to be the only supporter of the No Magic Rule
> He set the rule in place because of his religion; he believes that magic is demonic and won't have it linked to his game
> He denies the "Michael Jackson Compromise" because he "doesn't want to abandon his beliefs"
> He is a Jehovah's Witness Christian

If there are any mistakes in the facts above, please notify me.

Now, I don't want clashing blades and angry words, I want solutions and compromises. Let's start with something simple--Trainer Lucas, why do you feel like you'd be abandoning your beliefs if you followed the proposed Michael Jackson Compromise?

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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:37 pm

First, I agree with you Cipher, We should make a solution to this.

My Beliefs are very important to me. I play SSF2 as the Characters that I feel are fine, and stay away from those I don't. I can't change the Roster. But this case is different. I get to choose who is in it, and who is not. If I put Characters in my game that are Magical, but put a Disclaimer first saying that I don't believe in Magic, then -to me- that does not feel like staying true to my beliefs.

As you say, I feel it is Demonic. I don't want to put something that I feel would displease God. You differ in your beliefs, and that's fine. But to me, this is very important.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by CHAOS_FANTAZY on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:47 pm

I'm glad that you are walking into this with a positive attitude as well.

I understand that you feel that doing so would still be cheating your ways--to you, it seems to be saying you won't do something, then doing it anyway. I also understand that you feel magic is directly linked to demonic powers, which is something you want to steer clear of. Even I can agree a little with that--demonic powers often wind up being OP and are really scary.
But what I'm trying to wrap my head around here is why you link using magic in a game to practicing witchcraft in real life. Even if the characters' magic is ungodly (and sometimes it isn't), the biggest card I can play is one I've already played--it is, in fact, just a game. The character is practicing magic, not you, and just because you shoot a fireball out of your hand to clear out some enemies doesn't really mean you believe you can actually do that in real life. I mean, it's called a Role-Playing Game for a reason. So enlighten me--where exactly are you getting this final link from?

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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:31 am

I don't feel that using magic in a game equals witchcraft, but the Bible warns against magic as a whole. I agree that practicing and role-playing magic in a game is different, but I feel that as a whole it is wrong. The fact of the matter -to me- is that even if you don't believe in it, I don't want to play as something that the Bible says is Bad. To me, you are using magic, through the character. Even if you don't practice it in real life, using magic -even in a game- is, in my opinion, still under that warning against magic.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Herp on Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:48 pm

man you must hate Harry Potter
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:04 pm

Dang, I can't argue with his logic. LOL.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Herp on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:08 pm

You satanist, you hate Harry Potter.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:21 pm

Okay, I seriously can't tell if you are serious. You're freaking me out.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by TehKrazeh1 on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:32 pm

Flip a coin.

Heads, he's kidding.
Tails, he's kidding and stupid.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Herp on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:36 pm

TAILS
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:49 pm

Whew. That's good.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Herp on Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:19 pm

without the kidding part
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:38 pm

....Well I knew that.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Herp on Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:44 pm

you know that means I'm not kidding but I am stupid. drunken
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:47 pm

....Yeah. Lol. Okay, we better stop. CF is gonna have a fit...

Btw, you ARE kidding, right?
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Herp on Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:53 pm

Yes HP introduces millions of kids to reading it's what gets kids interested
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by CHAOS_FANTAZY on Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:10 pm

WHAT'S WITH ALL THIS STUPID IN MY DEBATE TOPIC.
GOSH DARN IT, I KNOW I SAID I DIDN'T WANT ANGRY WORDS, BUT THIS IS EVEN MORE POINTLESS THAN ANGRY WORDS.
ASDFSDHFIEOWUPRGHASDLKFHDFOIGSUADNFDSKJGARGLEBLARGLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Ahem.

It would appear the link I was failing to make was due to my lack of knowledge of the scriptures. I've never specifically read the part where it says that magic is unholy, I only knew of it.

I understand that one of the things about the Bible is how many ways one can interpret it, but I would argue that the only magic people believed in at the time was witchcraft. If something happened that they couldn't explain, that they couldn't understand, or even that they didn't like--BAM, that person was suddenly a demon-worshipping witch. It was all they had to believe in; they had no idea of what what magic is in modern society.
Even then, I would still have to say that not all the magic used in a game is unholy--especially considering the presence of "White Magic," which draws its power from praise for the God(s) of that specific universe.
---
And another thing to say on the side--if I work here full-time, I will likely be re-appointed as a Dev.
Each Dev gets to choose a pair of characters of theirs to add to the game.
I would likely choose one of my OCs rather than one of my FCs, since the OCs tend to be more compatible with other universes and a tad cooler.
And just to run down the list...

Master Necro: Has a distinct enemy, but uses magic
Jack: Could be considered "demonic"
Zion Takure: Doesn't use magic, but has no distinct enemy
Kenzo: Doesn't use magic (He received his powers from a chemical explosion), but has no distinct enemy
Zero: Has a distinct enemy and doesn't *have* to use magic, but his enemy uses magic
CHAOS_FANTAZY: Has a distinct enemy, but uses magic
Haruk: Technically uses magic; no distinct enemy
CHAOS_FINALITY: Has a distinct enemy, but uses magic
Magicman: Uses magic; no distinct enemy
Adel: Doesn't use magic, but has no distinct enemy
Jenzi/Soire (Not mentioned, but I invented them as well): Don't use magic, but have no distinct enemy

Oh, yes, and Herp...Percy Jackson is the new Harry Potter.

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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:40 pm

Well, it would appear that we at least understand why the other believes what he does. That's called progress, kiddos.

You can be re-appointed, if you think we've settled this matter. Do you have sprites for any of these characters? I like Kenzo and Zion. You seem to have a knack for making up stories. You ever thought about helping with the story? If you'd like, I can make a base sprite for each of them.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by CHAOS_FANTAZY on Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:12 pm

Indeed. It would seem that we're finally getting places.

On the note of spriting my OCs, I'd love to see you try to capture their character. Kenzo has a bit of a lazy backstory, though (He was created for an RP that never got off the ground, where the chemical explosion was the main theme), and Zion might be hard to develop a moveset for. If you want to try spriting them, though, go ahead and shoot me--I want to see how well you can capture their appearance. Also, you can ask for more background for Zion if you want, 'cause there's a whole lot more there than stated.

Sure, I could lend a hand in the story. I just don't really know where to do that.

I'd like to ask one more question before I propose a solution--despite the fact that you dislike magic-using characters, do you think that their presence in your game would make more people like it?

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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by TehKrazeh1 on Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:24 pm

Well, Doc, let me ask you one thing.

Don't you believe in the phrase, "The Holy Ghost?"
Or, "Evil spirit?"
OR, "Holy Spirit?"

Can't we at least accept ghosts or spirits then?
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:30 pm

I'd love to try to sprite them. If you could give all the info you have on them, It would help immensely.

Well, let's get some work done on the actual characters first. I'll Pm you soon so we can work on the story.

Well, while I agree that their presence would make more people like it, I really wouldn't be comfortable with adding them.

@Krazeh: While I believe in the Holy Spirit, what I believe is different from what you believe. No ghosts or Spirits.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by CHAOS_FANTAZY on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:40 pm

Alright; just PM me when you're ready to know more about his character.

I shall await this PM about the story; although, perhaps we should make it a topic under "Other" instead.

Okay, so it would seem we have all the facts before us. You may dislike magical characters, but even you acknowledge that their presence is likely to make your game more popular. Given that we all seem to agree on this fact, and I happen to be a sucker for pleasing crowds, I think it's safe to say we should abolish the rule.
However, simply abolishing the rule would be impolite to your beliefs; to compensate for the absence of this rule, you should have to deal with them as little as possible. For this, I propose two different compromises.

SECTION A: THE "YOU ASKED FOR IT" COMPROMISE"
This simply means that Trainer Lucas is not required to make any characters that use magic. We asked for their presence in the first place, so we should have to sprite and animate them; we should have to critique them amongst ourselves; we should have to program them. The only thing Lucas would be required to do is approve them.
This compromise also means that a magical character's spot in the roster is not secured until Trainer Lucas has approved it.

SECTION B: THE SUPER MARIO BROS. CROSSOVER COMPROMISE
The name of this compromise stems from a philosophy that I found myself running into a lot when it came to proposals for things to add to famous fangame, Super Mario Bros. Crossover. We wanted to give it as much content as possible and try to make it fun, but at the same time, we wanted to stay true to the original gameplay. The argument always came down to one thing: "Let's have both."
The idea for this compromise is to have an option added to the game when it is released; to select if the character roster is "Complete" or "Compromised." If "Compromised" is selected, all characters that use magic shall be removed from the game in the title sequence, Adventure Mode, and wherever else they may appear.


It really comes down to Lucas' opinion on this; but what does everyone else think of this?

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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:53 am

Well, My opinion is no. Neither of these work for me.

However, I do have a counter-proposal. Once the final game comes out, and not before, I will allow you each to make 1 expansion character that is exempt from the rule. You can only do it after the game is out, so that you don't take time away from making the official roster. One other thing, this only applies to the four of you. I'm not going to have every new member that disagrees with the rule make an expansion. Can we agree to keep it our little secret?

I would also like a disclaimer at the beginning of the game saying that: "All Expansion Characters are in no way affiliated with Hero Quest, and are not approved for dispersal with it."

The thing is, I respect you, CF. You are one of the smartest people I've met, and you aren't afraid to question what you don't understand. You also seem to firmly believe in what you say. I admire that. But for this Forum to run smoothly, we have to all be on the same page. As long as we agree to abide by the rule, and as long as we agree to this compromise, Can we agree to abide by it, at least for all of the Official aspects of the Game?

How about it?
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by TehKrazeh1 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:10 am

Okay, I can stick with that, I see that you're improving on stating your opinion now.

But could we at least have angels?
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Re: Let's Try This Again

Post by Trainer Lucas on Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:13 pm

Oh, my opinion is the same. However, I would like to respect your beliefs as well. This way, I think we all can be happy.

No. Sorry.
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Re: Let's Try This Again

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